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Nonce

Reversion of my good faith edit without explanation.

Hi,

I do not contribute enough to know how to Wikipedia editing works, but I can see no explanation as to why you reverted my good faith edit at https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Nonce&oldid=prev&diff=998752312

Please explain and hopefully reinstate my edit, or work with me to improve the page. Your unexplained reversion took the article back to a worse place.

best regards Timp

Timp21337 (talk) 11:43, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

Whether "good faith" or not, it's unsourced, and wrong - see nonce. That disambiguation page is regularly subject to vandalism, and the dictionary definition is clearly linked from it. Ghmyrtle (talk) 16:20, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
(talk page stalker) Surely the good old Daily Mail can't be wrong?? Martinevans123 (talk) 16:24, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

Notice of edit warring noticeboard discussion

Information icon Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion involving you at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring regarding a possible violation of Wikipedia's policy on edit warring. The thread is Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring#https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Edit_warring#User:ILIL_reported_by_User:Sulfurboy_(Result:_). Thank you. Sulfurboy (talk) 18:49, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

Stop icon

Your recent editing history at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phil_Spector shows that you are currently engaged in an edit war; that means that you are repeatedly changing content back to how you think it should be, when you have seen that other editors disagree. To resolve the content dispute, please do not revert or change the edits of others when you are reverted. Instead of reverting, please use the talk page to work toward making a version that represents consensus among editors. The best practice at this stage is to discuss, not edit-war. See the bold, revert, discuss cycle for how this is done. If discussions reach an impasse, you can then post a request for help at a relevant noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, you may wish to request temporary page protection.

Being involved in an edit war can result in you being blocked from editing—especially if you violate the three-revert rule, which states that an editor must not perform more than three reverts on a single page within a 24-hour period. Undoing another editor's work—whether in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material each time—counts as a revert. Also keep in mind that while violating the three-revert rule often leads to a block, you can still be blocked for edit warring—even if you do not violate the three-revert rule—should your behavior indicate that you intend to continue reverting repeatedly. Sulfurboy (talk) 19:57, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

Just to add that these claims are nonsense, should there be any doubt. Ghmyrtle (talk) 21:32, 18 January 2021 (UTC)
Oh well. At least you didn't get a wall of text? Jack Nitzsche 123 (talk) 09:57, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

The Signpost: 31 January 2021

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Rubettes edits

Dear Guy, I assume its you that has been deleting my edits of late. Care to indicate why. Me being assumably more of an authority on the subject that even you I would be happy to discuss and have you make the edits as appropriate on my behalf. awrubettes@gmail.com Your threat of deleting the whole page should I persist doesn't impress me. Better to have nothing that some of the BS that's up there. I hope to hear from you. Regards, Alan (the guy who didn't replace Prewer who was never a member of the band) Williams.175.36.86.127 (talk) 04:00, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

Hi. Please read WP:PSCOI and get back to me with your suggestions. Thanks. Ghmyrtle (talk) 07:12, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
As a PS: The thread below relates to Larry Beckett, and Mr Beckett, and the people looking after his interests, are doing things the way they should be done here - that is, by suggesting changes on talk pages first, rather than making major changes themselves. Ghmyrtle (talk) 18:24, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

Quick fix to Larry Beckett Page

Hi User:Ghmyrtle: It looks like when you made your edits to the Larry Beckett page the other day, his name was changed to Ralph Laurence Beckett Jr. That is the first time I've seen this on the page, and there is no source that shows it. Could you kindly change it back to Larry Beckett? He and I would greatly appreciate it! If it HAS to be that way, can it listed as Larry Beckett, born Ralph Lawrence Beckett, Jr.? But we'd prefer just Larry Beckett if that complies with Wiki rules and standards. Thank you LeepKendall (talk) 17:15, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

No problem. Ghmyrtle (talk) 18:20, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
Thank you for the assist User:Ghmyrtle. I don't want to be a pest, but he prefers NOT to have his dad's name on his page. Can we go back to the way it's been for 13 years and just show Larry Beckett? That is his legal name. Not to mention we don't have a source for the full name. I know it's a technicality, but one I'd like to use in his favor it at all possible. Thanks again. LeepKendall (talk) 18:49, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
I think this is where it starts to get more complicated. As I see it, our interests are primarily to present encyclopedic information to a wide readership, rather than merely giving the information that people want to be presented about them. Having said that, although the California Birth Index is a public source, it's a primary rather than secondary source, so I'll remove the mention of his birth name. But Mr Beckett spoke about his parents and childhood in this interview, used as the source in the article, and I don't see why it should be hidden now. It's a matter of public record, and it's quite usual for information like that to be included in an encyclopedia article. Any further discussion, I think, should be at the article talk page, rather than my own talk page, as other editors may well want to have an input. Ghmyrtle (talk) 19:05, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
Thank you. I totally understand what you are saying about the rules and standards. I appreciate your help and will definitely put any further discussion on Larry's talk page. It was change we weren't expecting. Thanks again, LeepKendall (talk) 19:25, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

Mel Giedroyc

Hello Ghmyrtle. I wonder do you have any ideas about Ms Giedroyc's full name? I don't want to be accused of canvassing, but there is a discussion ongoing at the Talk page. Many thanks for any suggestions. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:06, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

It's unbelievable: "WTF". Martinevans123 (talk) 12:51, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

"I'll Go Where Your Music Takes Me"

Could I ask a favour of you ? Yes, another one ! In my soapbox there is a draft article for the above song. You may recall it. Anyhoo, I wondered if you could work your magic and spirit up a couple of label pictures to go in the separate infoboxes. The images exist at both Discogs.com and 45cat.com, probably elsewhere for that matter. More generally, if there is anything else you can think of for the draft, then go for it. Many thanks,

Derek R Bullamore (talk) 19:07, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

Can do, but it would be easier if you put the article up first, so I can then say on the upload file which article it's going to be used in. Otherwise it gets more complicated! Ghmyrtle (talk) 13:23, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
I created the page in the mainframe - back to you ! - Derek R Bullamore (talk) 16:23, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
Many thanks Guy. - Derek R Bullamore (talk) 13:23, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
(talk page stalker) 45Cat.com is also a very useful source for general citations as well as images of labels, as Discogs.com**desperately holds up tiny silver crucifix** seems to be disliked as a source Martinevans123 (talk) 13:41, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

Spriguns

Do you have any personal knowledge of this outfit's early days when they were known as Spriguns Of Tolgus ? It is a long shot; only because someone contacted me via e-mail, as she thought that her uncle played with them !? Looks like he (Chris Russon) did too. I have posted back links to AllMusic, Discogs, 45worlds, etc., so that may suffice. I'd never heard of them, but then folk music generally passed me by on my blind/deaf side back in the day. Actually, thinking about it, it still does... - Derek R Bullamore (talk) 21:16, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

I have a book that I haven't looked at for a while - Great Folk Discography Vol.1 by Martin C Strong - that gives more details, and mentions Chris Russon as a founder member. Do you want me to edit the article? Ghmyrtle (talk) 21:31, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
I do not know how busy you are generally, and I hate to produce work for others to do, but if you fancy adding a line or two with that referenced source, it can not do any harm. To be fair, the Wiki article is not in bad shape as it stands. It's up to you. - Derek R Bullamore (talk) 21:59, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
OK - I've tweaked it a little. I suspect there are at least 6,000,000 articles in a worse state though...! (and a few not yet started.... Sandy Roberton for one). Ghmyrtle (talk) 22:17, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
Thanks for that. Yeah, this old Wiki malarkey should keep both of us going until we croak. Apart from "I'll Go Where..." (as above), I have not produced a new article in a long while, so Rob Cooper here I come. - Derek R Bullamore (talk) 22:32, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
I'm steaming through forgotten (but still WP:N he added hastily!) music hall and variety performers and writers as we speak. Keeps the grey matter ticking over... Ghmyrtle (talk) 22:35, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

Marc Ellington

I do not know if you noticed or not, but an IP has added another Christian name to Ellington's article. I feared the usual, but it looks as though the IP is probably a friend, not foe. No referenced source supplied though. I also put my own 'alfpenny's worth on the same article's talk page. Over to you, when you get a chance. Cheers,

Derek R Bullamore (talk) 22:30, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

It does seem to be accurate - there are various posts on Twitter (from Richard Thompson among others) that mention him in relation to the castle in the Companies House file. It's quite obvious from those posts that he has recently died, but it seems to be becoming increasingly difficult to find "reliable sources" that we can use - deaths are often now only reported on Twitter and Facebook. The same thing happened with Celia Humphris. Ghmyrtle (talk) 22:47, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
PS: Interestingly, the Martin Strong book that I cited yesterday also mentions Boston, Lincolnshire, as does Allmusic - but I'm sure that they're wrong. I've also commented on the article talk page. I'll see what I can do with the article tomorrow. Ghmyrtle (talk) 23:00, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
PPS: Ha! ...the American musician.... The truth at last! Ghmyrtle (talk) 23:07, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
And I quote, "Following a pillage of a nunnery in the 12th century by Clan Barclay". I've never, nay nivver as we allegedly say 'oop north, trusted those kilted heathens. On a considerably more serious note, apart from renovating a dilapidated old Scottish manse (if that is the correct description), I assume Ellington's notability is allied to his involvement in music - which seems flimsy to me, as his stubby article alludes to. This adds some bottom end credibility, although I am baffled how an American ends up as 'Deputy Lieutenant of Aberdeenshire' ! I am guessing you know far more than I do – which, frankly, is not difficult.
On a completely different tack, could you cast a glance at my sandpit draft article on Rob Cooper. The more I look at it, it seems very clunky; and then the more I look at it again, it appears so familiar; that I lose any sense my perception. It's probably a lack of focus/confidence/familiarity with the whole process of trying to create something new, but a second opinion would be appreciated. Then I will try to stop clogging up your talk page with my ramblings... for a while. Thanks,
Derek R Bullamore (talk) 00:12, 20 February 2021 (UTC)
Obviously the Ellington article needs to be written up, but there's no disputing his notability - albums on major labels and so forth. Re Cooper, that looks just fine to me. BARE has nothing about him, other than a mention in the notes about Pullum, and it's an impossible name to research. Ghmyrtle (talk) 07:55, 20 February 2021 (UTC)
PS: You don't have a subscription to Rock's Back Pages, do you? - this. Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:30, 20 February 2021 (UTC)
Thanks for that. Can I say I have never heard of Rock's Back Pages, never mind paying for the privilege. So I can't help you with that one. - Derek R Bullamore (talk) 13:32, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

Sherman Robertson

... "deaths are often now only reported on Twitter and Facebook". Yeah, Sherman Robertson is a relatively recent case in point. IPs are desperate to 'update' his article, but without any reference. I am certain he has died, but trying to find a WP:RS is problematic. More generally, this may be an ongoing problem, to which I do not know an easy answer. - Derek R Bullamore (talk) 00:03, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

Re Sherman Robertson - I have Blues & Rhythm magazine, which says he died "as we went to press" - full obit next month. Not much help I'm afraid but I'll keep looking. My personal view for what it's worth is that, where we are certain that someone has died but can't find a WP:RS, we should include it in the article but with a {{cn}} tag, and if it is challenged we discuss it on the talk page - I've done that in other cases and it has never been challenged. Adding it at Recent deaths is a different matter - we need a good published source for that. Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:02, 26 February 2021 (UTC)
PS: Anyway, I've found an OK source for Robertson's death - https://bluesmatters.com/remembering-sherman-robertson-1948-2021/. The death date is from other sources but can be tweaked if it's out by a day or so. Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:10, 26 February 2021 (UTC)
OK. Thanks for that. You are taking a more bullish approach over this than I would, but that's fine. Hopefully some specialist publication, either in print or online, will fill in the gaps in due course. - Derek R Bullamore (talk) 13:24, 26 February 2021 (UTC)
I do take into account the likelihood of anyone objecting. If it appears certain, confirmed by family or friends, etc., I'm more likely to feel able to withstand whatever arguments about WP:RS, etc., certain editors might throw at me! Ghmyrtle (talk) 13:28, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

Mount Zion Memorial Fund

I undertook a bit of remedial work on this article today, but noticed that it generally was not in great shape. I happened to glance at the talk page and saw you had expressed similarly misgivings, albeit over four years ago. Would you be interested in a collaboration to try to bring the whole thing up to a decent standard, not least of which trying to incorporate any still viable sources in the 'External links' in the article ? The organisation seems to have the best motives, even if internal squabbles and/or changes in leadership may have stalled its direction. Mamie Galore probably needs an article too.

You may be too busy elsewhere, but... By the way, I had my first COVID jab this past week ! Cheers,

Derek R Bullamore (talk) 23:48, 27 February 2021 (UTC)

I'm happy to help in principle, but I'm not sure of the best way to start. The article is probably accurate, but is mostly unsourced and obviously written by people closely connected with the organisation. I doubt whether there has been any in-depth study of it in external sources, though there is a lot of information on their own site of course. Were you thinking of rewriting it from scratch, or simply chopping and sourcing existing paragraphs? Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:36, 28 February 2021 (UTC)
PS: Personally, I'm probably more concerned about The Rubettes (see thread above). That needs a lot of work to make it independent and reliable. I thought this - but then I thought, no I can't... Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:16, 28 February 2021 (UTC)
It was my thought to have an in-depth look at the 'sources' in the article in the first instance, and see where we go from there. I can confirm your thoughts that the external sources only really scratch the surface, as far as supporting the majority of the text is concerned. I have incorporated what there is as true inline citations. The existing inline refs contain two dead links, whether permanent or not, I do not know. What is now left as external links has one where a subscription is required (and even then it may be blocked to European eyes). Of the other three, I do not know whether an online version is available, but I will guess probably not. Then there is the MZMF website, but as a primary source it has only limited usage here. I will have a further trawl around on t'internet and see what other sources I can find. This may be a dead end. I am not too sure what one does when sources are thin on the ground, but articles have copious text that, on face value, has no glaring howlers. Stick a {Refimprove} tag on and walk away is the most common approach. This is not the only case in that category - as you will be aware, there are thousands of them.
The Rubettes... a couple of geriatrics, maintaining decades long petty feuds via two tribute acts, at best. Everything post 1978 is trivial and should be covered in a couple of sentences, and the rest ditched. However, the warring factions would be straight back, bitching and trying to promote their long since dead reputations. Reminds me of The Bachelors et al.
Derek R Bullamore (talk) 15:48, 28 February 2021 (UTC)
You know how these things lead you off on a tangent, well I found a short article about Charlie Burse, which I added as a source into his article, which I also tidied up a bit - I've got nothing better to do ! Anyhow, this suggests his full name was Charlie Joe Burse Sr. Does BARE accord? I did not add it to his article, being unsure of the reliability of headstone inscriptions, but given Mount Zion's involvement in the placing of a new headstone, I think it passes muster. - Derek R Bullamore (talk) 16:53, 28 February 2021 (UTC)
BARE, quoting Social Security info, says Charley- and no Joe. Ghmyrtle (talk) 17:39, 28 February 2021 (UTC)
PS. This site may be useful to plump up sources in the MZMF article. This too, although I have not listened to it as yet. Blogs such as this and that probably considerably less so. Plus more speculation on Robert Johnson.. quite an industry in itself. Then there is this site which wanders around the subject, but may be of some worth. Actually, I have found more than I thought I would, like this one. I'll stop now. - Derek R Bullamore (talk) 17:16, 28 February 2021 (UTC)
Well I found three additional viable references for the Mount Zion article, and as collateral plumped up the articles for T-Model Ford, Bo Carter, Gus Cannon, Sam Chatmon, Mance Lipscomb and Jack Owens. That's the good news, but the MZMF article is still far short of cites for all of the text therein, and I have trawled the net for what I did find. To my eyes the article does not contain anything glaringly incorrect, but I do not really know where we go from here... Oh, and I left Charlie Burse's name untouched, as per BARE.
Derek R Bullamore (talk) 15:15, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

The Signpost: 28 February 2021

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Kirkby, Fazakerley and L postcode area

Might need you experienced eye across these three articles to come to some kind of solution. I think the answer is that people have got used to calling everything east of the M57 "Fazakerley" and everything west of the M57 Kirkby (I know I have), when any maps or evidence I can find clearly shows Kirkby's historic boundaries covering the area developed as the Field Lane Estate and Kirkby Golf Course. Fazakerley borders I am struggling to nail down, and it might well be the case that it has historically stretched into Kirkby (given we are talking the difference between Town, Township, Parished areas etc). I can't however see any evidence that Fazakerley has ever been administered by Kirkby (i.e. there is no reference to Field Lane being Fazakerley in their records). User Babydoll9799 has made some reverts edits, so I have shoved a CN tag on Fazakerley as I can't find anything and the description was added in 2009 with no sourcing. The suggestion by Babydoll9799 that it's just a thing that Fazakerley happens to be partly in Knowsley and by extension Kirkby might be true, but I am at a loss as to how they might actually prove it. Koncorde (talk) 23:57, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

Is this worth raising at WT:UKGEO, where editors who have done this sort of thing before may lurk? I don't know the area that well, but am happy to rely on your analysis. I just thought I was reverting an unhelpful change to the wording of the opening sentence. Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:11, 1 March 2021 (UTC)
Yeah, the change being made was a clear POV push but they did highlight an oddity. It was more just your assistance in pushing back against unsourced information / changes as we both know for some reason the Merseyside borders and populations are very precious to some. I am going to keep digging for earlier Fazak sourcing but I don't hold up much hope because between Aintree and co the entire area is a hot mess of conflicting sub district type areas. Koncorde (talk) 13:04, 1 March 2021 (UTC)
As suspected, Babydoll returned. Ad homs aside, no evidence provided. I have added further sources to the discussion at Kirkby. Koncorde (talk) 01:30, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

File:I Do Like to Be Beside the Seaside.jpg listed for discussion

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Voynich manuscript

Hi, regarding your revert of my edit, are you sure the spelling is correct? further down in the same section of the article there is the following quotation:

Reverend and Distinguished Sir, Father in Christ:

This book, bequeathed to me by an intimate friend, I destined for you, my very dear Athanasius, as soon as it came into my possession, for I was convinced that it could be read by no one except yourself.

The former owner of this book asked your opinion by letter, copying and sending you a portion of the book from which he believed you would be able to read the remainder, but he at that time refused to send the book itself. To its deciphering he devoted unflagging toil, as is apparent from attempts of his which I send you herewith, and he relinquished hope only with his life. But his toil was in vain, for such Sphinxes as these obey no one but their master, Kircher. Accept now this token, such as it is and long overdue though it be, of my affection for you, and burst through its bars, if there are any, with your wonted success.

Dr. Raphael, a tutor in the Bohemian language to Ferdinand III, then King of Bohemia, told me the said book belonged to the Emperor Rudolph and that he presented to the bearer who brought him the book 600 ducats. He believed the author was Roger Bacon, the Englishman. On this point I suspend judgement; it is your place to define for us what view we should take thereon, to whose favor and kindness I unreservedly commit myself and remain

At the command of your Reverence, Joannes Marcus Marci of Cronland Prague, 19th August, 1665 [or 1666]

In this the spelling is different!!

Regards Denisarona (talk) 09:48, 8 March 2021 (UTC)

I simply believed that reverting a spelling from - apparently - a verbatim quote, on the basis that it was a "mis-spelling" based on what a dictionary said, was incorrect. "Sphynx" rather than "sphinx" is an alternative spelling that could well have been used, and I accepted the originator's edit in good faith. Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:14, 8 March 2021 (UTC)

Thanks

Just checking in to say thank you for a good conversation there. On looking around (eg here), I suspect that editorial discrepancies regarding scope/definition may actually be more widespread. Cheers, 86.186.168.207 (talk) 18:37, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

The talented Thomas's

Another request, I'm afraid. I have been doing some work on the articles of Sippie Wallace (Beulah Belle Thomas) and her brothers, Hersal Thomas and George Washington Thomas. A bit too much talent all round, if you ask me. There were anomalies on dates of births/deaths within and between the articles. However, it is Wallace's husband, Matt, who is now the one that is unclear. We do not seem to have his date of birth (189?) and death (only 1936, if that is accurate), and their marriage date (1917, I think) is not quoted. Matt Wallace is only a bit player in the drama, although it appears that he did write "Murder's Gonna Be My Crime" and co-write "Baby, I Can't Use You No More", for his missus. Could you unearth something more concrete for him... pretty please.

PS. The song title "Murder's Gonna Be My Crime" is a bit much, given what may well have happened to poor young Hersal.

Derek R Bullamore (talk) 22:17, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

I had a quick look but I don't think I can help in relation to Matt Wallace. There seems to be a lot of information about the family on this page - I don't know if it's been used at all, or provides any more details. Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:01, 12 March 2021 (UTC)
Thanks for your efforts. I notice that George's article uses Sandiegoragtime.com as one of the references - unfortunately no mention at all of Sippie's husband therein. Never mind, you can't win them all. Best wishes - Derek R Bullamore (talk) 14:28, 12 March 2021 (UTC)
By the way, do you get as irritated by the misuse of "singer-songwriter" as I do? A "singer-songwriter" is someone like Joni Mitchell or Nick Drake - not someone from a different time and place who happened to both sing and write. And don't get me started on "cover versions". Or claims that the Beatles were a "rock band". Grrr.... Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:18, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
Yes, all of those plus 'musical genres' generally, a purely music industry invention, so they can classify their artists in neat boxes for promotion purposes. And, my latest pet hate from God Bless America, 'full-length album'. Arrrgh. Are we just grumpy old men !? - Derek R Bullamore (talk) 15:39, 13 March 2021 (UTC)

Dusty Brown (musician)

I hate to be a nuisance, but I have run round in bloody circles for hours, trying to find a definitive death date for this blues harp player. The draft article is in my sandpit. All I can find is this and that. Could you find the time to see if you are more successful. Ta,

Derek R Bullamore (talk) 14:52, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

Here's something - C. W. Triplett AKA Dusty Brown (March 11, 1929 - July 10, 2016). It doesn't meet WP:RS, of course, but..... Sorry, I think that's the best I'm going to find. Ghmyrtle (talk) 15:38, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
Brilliant - your detective skills are clearly better than mine. I will include the information, but leave the 'reference' blank. I doubt anyone will notice ! Thanks - Derek R Bullamore (talk) 17:35, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

British dance band artists

Hi there - I appreciate your thanks for my edits to the Jack Jackson article. I tidied up the Roy Fox article the other day too. You may be interested to know that a while ago, I created an article for Bob and Alf Pearson, and last week, I created articles for Mary Lee and Helen Clare. Vintage British performers are one of my areas of interest too - particularly those still living. Lee is still alive at 99 (the only living dance band singer from the 30s), while Clare and Alf Pearson were alive in recent years, becoming centenarians. I think Marion Keene is the only living British dance band singer from the 40s. From the 50s, which is really beyond the "golden age" of the bands, there's Rose Brennan and Dennis Lotis.--TrottieTrue (talk) 17:25, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

Hi there. I'm not quite sure how or why this has ended up as an "interest" of mine... ! But, with nothing much better to do over the last few months I seem to have acquired quite a few sources on music hall, variety, and associated subjects (including, but not restricted to, dance bands), so am trying to fill in gaps as I go. Hopefully, between us, and with others, we can make sure that those gaps are filled more satisfactorily than before. Regards, Ghmyrtle (talk) 17:57, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

Lee Jackson (blues musician)

This is a long shot, but is Jackson listed in Whitburn, Joel (1988). Top R&B Singles 1942–1988. Record Research, Inc. ISBN 0-89820-068-7 ? Jackson's draft is in my sandpit at the moment. I half wondered about doing an article on his single, "Fishin' in My Pond", penned by Dear Old Willie. As in notable artist (once the page is up and running), notable songwriter, notable label, song mentioned at some length in a published book etc. Or am I pissing in the wind ?! Thanks,

Derek R Bullamore (talk) 11:20, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

Not in Whitburn, I'm afraid. I do remember seeing his namesake though... probably half a century ago now! Ghmyrtle (talk) 11:44, 24 March 2021 (UTC)
Ooooh... was it a 'nice' experience, or did it take you to 'heights' you could only dream about ? - Derek R Bullamore (talk) 11:51, 24 March 2021 (UTC)
Returning to my latest pet project, who's publication had been slowed down by both Reflinks/Reflist bots being conked at the same time (as if we haven't got enough on), I am presently leaning in my draft version towards the BARE version of his birth name, compared to Wirz.de. I know 'Lee Jackson' to trace is a non-starter, but any detective help on the opposing longer versions would be good. Stefan is rarely wrong in my experience. On a completely unrelated matter, was Sheila Borrett thrice married ? I have read your latest article three times (or thrice, if you would prefer), and I am still not sure. - Derek R Bullamore (talk) 00:01, 26 March 2021 (UTC)
Re Sheila Borrett first, I think she was married four times, but no WP:RS say that, and I'm a little uncertain, so I've purposely left it a little vague.
Re Lee Jackson, I don't know, but it wouldn't surprise me if it's been resolved through unpublished communication between Stefan Wirz and Bob Eagle, and Stefan's site would reflect that. His name crops up a fair amount in a Facebook forum that I'm in - do you want the link for that, or shall I copy some of it to you? (Or, you could email Stefan via his user page). Not an RS of course. Ghmyrtle (talk) 07:48, 26 March 2021 (UTC)
Another random PS: interesting that this is still going on... "I was 27 when I put my first record out, but I told my label I was 23...." Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:46, 26 March 2021 (UTC)
Thanks for that. Four times.. wow, she must have been one hell of a lass ! I think I will go with our gut instincts and switch to Wiz in the birth name referencing in Lee Jackson's draft article. I always thought Paloma Faith looked older than billed - there really is nothing new under the sun. I can exclusively reveal that I also have been economical with the truth over my age. I actually served in the same unit as Captain Tom. I was stood alongside him when he got the message, "Ground Control to Captain Tom". We got muddled up, and he ate my protein pills and I put his helmet on ! - Derek R Bullamore (talk) 14:43, 26 March 2021 (UTC)
(talk page stalker) A review of the 13 different uploads of Jackson's 1957 "Fishin' in My Pond" at YT, show almost as many different labels that it's been published by. I'm not sure if that makes the potential of possible copyvio better or worse. The Cobra original appears at 45Cat here. But the discogs.com entries don't tell us who the other musicians (including that harmonica) were; but a fine solo nevertheless. Great to hear a song about such an important Brexit issue. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:15, 26 March 2021 (UTC)
Well according to my hours of diligent research (not original, of course), which was undertaken whilst "floating in a most peculiar way", reveals the gob organ player was Big Walt. Hence the quality; nearly as good as Little Walt at his best. See here, there and everywhere. It was common practice for blues records to appear on more than one label. I guess it spread the risk ? My draft articles (in my sandpit) for both Jackson and the single as mentioned, are almost ready to go. Which is more than I ever am. Regards, - Derek R Bullamore (talk) 15:51, 26 March 2021 (UTC)
Ah yes, nice sources, thanks. Jimmy Rogers on guitar I see. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:00, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

The Signpost: 28 March 2021

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The things you find when you are not trying

I could not help but make you aware of AllMusic's description of one massively obscure blues musician thus – "Side Wheel Sally Duffie, whose "Bunker Hill Blues" is a piano blues showcase for a high-register, vibrato-heavy vocal of uncertain pitch which sounds almost like a 1920s equivalent to Björk".[1] Chortle and LOL - Derek R Bullamore (talk) 22:15, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

You think that's odd.... ?! - https://www.britishpathe.com/video/scott-and-whaley/query/Scott+and+Whaley (Be prepared...) Ghmyrtle (talk) 12:18, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
My wife and I had a good giggle at that one ! "Every day without laughter is a day lost". All the right notes but not necessarily in the right order - Derek R Bullamore (talk) 14:30, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
PS. We had an even bigger guffaw, when watching the short silent film clip on the Billy B. Van article. If you have not seen it, it's well worth a look. - Derek R Bullamore (talk) 21:17, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

Blues Boy Willie

Just a quick one. I've a draft article on the go for this old blues boy. Does he appear in Whitburn's R&B chart book ? Cheers - Derek R Bullamore (talk) 19:32, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

Yes he does. They have his name as William Daniel McFall (no 's'), same birth date and place as your draft. Vocals/harmonica/bass/guitar. Son of Thelma and James "Tim" McFall. Recorded for WDCA and Ichiban. Worked with Johnny Rawls in 2009. Last known living in Amarillo, Texas. BARE p.346 if you want to cite it. Ghmyrtle (talk) 19:42, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
PS: Oops - wrong book! Not in Whitburn. Ghmyrtle (talk) 19:44, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
Thanks for that. It's funny because every source I have found for him, spells his real surname with an 's'; including Komara's Encyclopedia of the Blues, et al. Also, what is WDCA - according to one source I found it stands for Washington Dwarf Car Association ! Only in America !?! Plus, is this the way to Amarillo ? I do need to know because every night I've been hugging my pillow. Anyway, cheers. - Derek R Bullamore (talk) 21:27, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
His official Texas birth record says McFall, FWIW. What's the significance of WDCA, BTW? Ghmyrtle (talk) 07:12, 3 April 2021 (UTC)
In that case, McFall it is. I do not know what the significance of WDCA is, except that BARE mentions it as if it is/was a record label. The nearest I can find is a television station, part of Fox. Whatever, I'll just ignore that bit. Thanks for your help. - Derek R Bullamore (talk) 12:38, 3 April 2021 (UTC)
Sorry, it's an age thing.... WDCA, I assume. Ghmyrtle (talk) 12:45, 3 April 2021 (UTC)
Thank you again for your help. Old Boy Willie is now up and running. I see that Margie Evans (bless) has got the singer-songwriter treatment on the No Longer With Us page. Tsk. Did she record any 'full length albums', I wonder ?! - Derek R Bullamore (talk) 23:05, 3 April 2021 (UTC)
Grrr.... I've changed it back. If they want to argue the point, so be it. I'm sure she recorded a lot of "cover versions". Ghmyrtle (talk) 07:57, 4 April 2021 (UTC)

Akong Rinpoche page

Thank you for your comments. I am new to Wikipedia editing so please bear with me. As you noticed, I am the coordinator of the Akong Memorial Foundation. My goal has been to make this page represent the achievements of someone I have huge respect for. The issue of lack of neutrality - is it due to my role within Samye Ling (and as a student of Akong's), or is it because of anything I have added or removed? Akong Memorial Foundation coordinator (talk) 13:17, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

Your user name suggests that you are associated with Akong Rinpoche, and editing articles with which you may have a conflict of interest in this way is strongly discouraged. I don't have any particular interest in the article subject and so have not read through your edits in detail, but please bear in mind that all edits should be supported by reliable, previously published, independent sources, and citations should be formatted correctly (in particular, there should not be bare links in the text). I will leave a welcome section on your user talk page, which should give you further advice on editing here. Ghmyrtle (talk) 13:28, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

Thank youAkong Memorial Foundation coordinator (talk) 13:32, 9 April 2021 (UTC) My next step, then, might be to replace the bare links with Wiki page links, and, if not possible, to use them as citations instead?Akong Memorial Foundation coordinator (talk) 13:48, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

No - you should not use Wikipedia as a source for itself. You can use the sources that are used to support statements in other Wikipedia articles, so long as you check that they have been updated and still apply. Otherwise, you should find new, independent sources. Ghmyrtle (talk) 13:51, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

Ah, I think I've worked out what's going wrong. I'm confusing citations, which are meant to prove the passage, with links, which just lead to further info. Correct? Akong Memorial Foundation coordinator (talk) 16:47, 9 April 2021 (UTC) But I don't understand (if that is the case) why the link to Freda Bedi isn't working, since I have also provided a proper citation to corroborate my statement.Akong Memorial Foundation coordinator (talk) 16:47, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

Two examples. For 1st Akong, you cannot link to any Wikipedia article, but if you need to leave a citation you write: 1st Akong <ref>[https://akongmemorialfoundation.org/bio/ 1st Akong Rinpoche, ''Akong Memorial Foundation'']</ref> (without the markup which I've included here simply to make it visible on this page). For Freda Bedi, you need to write: [[Freda Bedi]], which gives a link direct to her page (thus: Freda Bedi). Ghmyrtle (talk) 17:35, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

A little help, if you can

I do not know how, after creating umpteen articles, I have managed to get Johnny Iguana rendered in italics in the article's name. Nor frankly, how to rectify its styling. Do you ? - Derek R Bullamore (talk) 22:53, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

It seems to be because you have {{Infobox album}} within the article - see WP:ITALICTITLE. Either the infobox needs to be removed (and a separate article created, I'd suggest), or you need to ask at WP:VPT if there is a way round it. Hope that helps. Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:26, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
Thanks for that. It never occurred to me that an album infobox would have that outcome. Anyhow, I have posed the question at the Bicycle Pump page, to see if there is an alternative, and then go from there. I will probably end up simply taking the infobox out - it is not vital. Cheers. - Derek R Bullamore (talk) 13:09, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
Crikey, as soon as I had written the above, some kind soul has edited the article, by adding italic_title=no to {{Infobox album}}. Simple when you know how. - Derek R Bullamore (talk) 13:15, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
I did try a couple of possible fixes, but not the one that worked! Ghmyrtle (talk) 15:12, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
You certainly did more than me - I just looked helplessly/hopelessly at the page, had a thought about using 'move', then thought again and contacted you. All's well that... - Derek R Bullamore (talk) 15:21, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
On a vaguely connected note, I see that the Blues Music Awards ceremony is being held 'virtually' on June 6 this year. It is a little later than normal; usually backend of May. My point is that I look forward to this event. Not so much as to see who wins what, but the fact that is usually unearths some 'up and comings' in the nomination listing, which gives me a name or three for my 'Reds or Blues' list. Mr. Iguana being a case in point. Incidentally, said 'Reds or Blues' list will be ten years old this October. Enjoy Yourself (It's Later than You Think) ! - Derek R Bullamore (talk) 15:37, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

The Signpost: 25 April 2021

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Les yeux ecarquillés , ou eyebombing, ou ça vous regarde

Bonjour,

En réponse à votre courrier. En effet je suis nouveau sur ce genre de manipulation , cependant il y a de grosse erreurs sur la page : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Googly_eyes#References En effet le mouvement Eyebombing artistique de street art ne date pas des année 2000, mais des années 80/90. Ce mouvement est bien l'oeuvre d'un artiste français ( https://www.do-benracassa.com/eyebombing-france/) qui travaille sur ce concept baptisé depuis 1983 baptisé Ça vous regarde en hommage à l'oeuvre de George Orwel 1984. L'artiste à parcouru l'europe en collant des yeux et posant son regard sur tout et partout. C'est en 1993 qu'il consacre son mémoire d'enseignant sur l'échec scolaire avec ce concept comme support pédagogique. Enfin, les villes, plusieurs villes ont fait appel à l'artiste pour habiller l'environnement urbain. C'est en 1999 , point d'orgue du travail de l'artiste que la ville d'Aix en Provence lui demande d'intervenir pour les journée du Patrimoine. Do Benracassa va poser plus de 350 paires d'yeyx sur la ville dont certains à plus de 35 mètres de haut sur l'hotél de ville et plus de 1,5 mètre de diamètre. C'est un article du Médium( https://medium.com/@nixiep/the-origins-of-eyebombing-3203d18da5d9 )qui après avoir fait des recherche sur l'antériorité du concept est remonté jusqu'à cet artiste Française, Pariétisme Média dédié aux arts de rue nous en parle également.http://www.parietisme.fr/ais_articles/17Le Je tenais donc à apporter ces rectifications sur le sujet. Comment faire ? Je vous remercie Bien à vous Dostreetart — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dostreetart (talk • contribs) 09:08, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

We are the English Wikipedia. If you want to have further discussion, please add your comments, in English, at Talk:Googly eyes. Merci. Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:41, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

Anne Ziegler

Hi there, I know this is going back 11 years, but when you created this article you mentioned Zeigler got married after her Broadway debut. However, IBDB lists her cast credit on Broadway with the last name Booth, which would imply she was already married in 1937. See here. Given that no reference was cited, I was wondering if you might remember where you got that info, because it doesn't make sense with her already having his last name. Best.4meter4 (talk) 01:08, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

I probably got the information from this source. It's confirmed by official records (via Ancestry.com), which state that she was named as co-respondent in Webster Booth's divorce in March 1938, and that they married at Paddington Registry Office on 5 November 1938 - as per this source, which also says: "Anne and Webster lived at the same address before and after his divorce from Paddy Prior in 1938". So, she was in a relationship with Booth, and used his name, at the time of her 1937 Broadway appearance. Here is the September 1937 playbill for Virginia, which confirms that indeed she was known as Anne Booth at that time. Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:23, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
Thank you so much. Was she often known as Anne Booth? If so the article lead should probably reflect that in bolded letters. I already put in a redirect for that name to the Zieler article.4meter4 (talk) 12:54, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
I'm no expert, but IBDB gives just that one example. In her private life after her marriage she may well have been known as Anne Booth, but we wouldn't usually highlight that in the lead as it would not have been a name under which she was widely known. My solution is simply to add "...(credited as Anne Booth)..." to the mention of her Broadway show. Ghmyrtle (talk) 13:26, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

Removed the offensive reference to Barry White as the "Walrus of Love" and the voice of chocolate cake.

I don't wish to engage in editing war but it's been known for several decades that Barry White was offended by the British [UK] reference to him as a "walrus" based on his physical appearance. This is extremely offensive to his legacy and I have asked you to please remove the offensive remarks. To also refer to him as the voice of "chocolate cake" is also racial and malicious. There are more than enough reputable reference to Barry White by the beloved moniker of "The Maestro", and enough proof the "walrus" label is derisive.

It's obvious you are not the appropriate editor for this article and need to remove yourself immediately. I don't know how Wikipedia editing hierarchy works, but I will escalate this to the highest level if you persist in participating in the continued reference to source material that consist of offensive body shaming and racial attack of this legendary artist.

You don't know or appreciate this artist, so leave him alone. Frankly, it's unbelievable for you NOT to know how racially offensive that content is and then repeatedly replace it when asked not to. It's not as if this is "need to know" information. It is not. It is racist and offensive body shaming, and that is never necessary commentary.

Cheryldee333 (talk) 01:03, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

Whatever Mr White thought about it is of no relevance whatsoever (though his views could be mentioned if you have a source for them). We are an encyclopedia not a fan site, and we go with what reliable sources say. I took the reference out of the lead, but it is absolutely correct and fair to include it in the body of the article. Of course, you are entirely free to start a discussion here, but please don't comment about individual editors. I'll put a welcome notice on your talk page - there is a lot of guidance there on how editing should be carried out, and it may help you to read through some of it. Thanks. Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:02, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

British Hun Culture

Hi

I wanted to suggest an addition to the Culture of the United Kingdom page. It's a tongue-in-cheek term of reference for a typical type of woman, their tastes and pieces of popular culture, all inspired by the early days of social media when 'u ok hun xx' came into popular use.

The popularity of British 'Hun' culture is something which has risen massively over the past 5 years. It's typically milennials who champion it and are the 'heroes' of it, but younger generations have caught on too. It's a celebration of all things that are a bit British and a bit naff. Some say it pokes fun at working class people, but it's affectionate and celebratory.

There are numerous articles which sum up what a hun is, and several Instagram accounts dedicated to it, which I have listed below: https://www.vice.com/en/article/evy5dw/u-ok-hun-culture-history-ladette-gemma-collins https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/huns-an-appreciation_uk_5f6dfd69c5b6cdc24c18369b

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/uokhunofficial/?hl=en https://www.instagram.com/loveofhuns/?hl=en https://www.instagram.com/loveofhuns_tv/?hl=en

It also featured as a song on the UK version of the popular TV show Drag Race: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9wRiNzM6Ww

Examples of Huns/faces of the movement: Alison Hammond Charity Shop Sue Gail Platt

Mollygracelynch (talk) 09:44, 19 May 2021 (UTC) Early Years Adele Jane McDonald (my personal favourite)

At the moment when you search 'Hun' of Wikipedia it only comes up with results alluding to Atilla The, and I am hoping you can help me right that wrong.

I've no idea why you're asking me. (Should I be flattered??) I suggest that you copy and paste what you've written here, start a section at Talk:Culture of the United Kingdom, and see if others support your suggestion. Or, you could make a suggestion at WP:Teahouse. Ghmyrtle (talk) 13:17, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

The Echoes (English group)

I do not know if you have come across this article. I have undertaken referencing and some clean-up work on it in the past, but nothing major - which it clearly needs. However, I am right on the fence about the outfit's notability. I have been contacted by a former member of the group, asking for assistance in adding references he claims he possesses. Obviously WP:RS and WP:CoI applies. Before getting too deep in either regard, I think the notability issue needs discussion. Is there a talk page (apart from the article's own talk page, which actually does not exist and would likely get negligible traffic) where I could raise this ? I have been in a bit of a spin trying to find a suitable, well attended, 'site' where I could post this. Thanks.

Derek R Bullamore (talk) 13:48, 22 May 2021 (UTC)

You could raise it at WP:DSBAND if you think it should be deleted, though they have an Allmusic article - somewhat oddly not quoted in our article - which usually denotes some sort of notability. It's pretty obvious that UALRIGHTFRED is very closely connected with the subject. Ghmyrtle (talk) 15:03, 22 May 2021 (UTC)
I see that your friend from Melbourne (here, and see last para of article) is back. WP:COI?? Good luck! Ghmyrtle (talk) 07:54, 31 May 2021 (UTC)
Yes, thanks for spotting that. I have been away cricket watching for a few days. Just when your back is turned... Anyhow, I have received an e-mailed apology from the individual concerned, and will try to extract some references from his bibliographical collection in due course. Regards, - Derek R Bullamore (talk) 13:29, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

Katherine Henderson

I have my doubts about the validity of this edit. Thoughts ? No rush - I know you are AWOL at present. Ta, - Derek R Bullamore (talk) 18:29, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

I've reverted the edit. I can't find any support for it in SSDI, and it's certainly not in BARE. Ghmyrtle (talk) 11:30, 15 June 2021 (UTC)
PS: Just looking a little further, it appears as though the edit comes from a user-generated profile on Ancestry.com, which gives the same birth date as this article, and the same death date - which is sourced from SSDI and gives a Social Security number of 103-05-7188, under a married name of Katherine Jackson. The Ancestry profile has her marrying John Lewis Jackson in 1928 - which accords with this article. It suggests that two of her children may still be alive. This all seems plausible, but I still think needs some more reliable evidence. Ghmyrtle (talk) 12:25, 15 June 2021 (UTC)
OK. Thanks for your work - as you say, there is some mitigating evidence, but we need secondary source(s) to be sure it is the same person. Maybe, the original poster will come back with something else. - Derek R Bullamore (talk) 13:00, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

I Need Help

I have some playlists on YouTube Music that are divided by genre, but the constant additions and removals of genres from templates or song templates (and removals of templates themselves from genre pages) make it hard for me to know which song belongs where. Could you help me? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.54.195.214 (talk) 19:53, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

Sorry, no. I have absolutely no interest whatsoever in the utterly pointless and fruitless exercise of categorising music into so-called "genres". The fact that you are a US resident does not surprise me in the slightest. You are asking the wrong person. Ghmyrtle (talk) 21:15, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

Good Rocking Tonight

I think there's pretty solid case to be made for this song including cover versions by Elvis Presley, Paul McCartney, and Robert Plant. I think it merits a mention (Fdog9). I don't see the harm in letting it stand.....it is a legitimate early rock record. If you have any suggestions on sourcing I will certainly listen and if you ultimately remove it...I'll let it go. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fdog9 (talk • contribs) 14:45, 24 June 2021 (UTC) ‎

Yes, but entire books (like Dawson and Propes' book) have been written about the origins of rock and roll, probably naming hundreds of different songs which showed some elements of r'n'r. We have a lengthy article about the origins of r'n'r, which makes the point that trying to pin the origins down to just one or two recordings is pointless. The origins are also discussed, in summary, in the rock and roll article, and we don't need to get into yet another discussion about it in the rock music article, which focuses on music of the 1960s and later. Please bear in mind that these are all articles with a good number of editors "watching" them, and major changes that aren't discussed beforehand on the talk page always face the prospect of being removed unless they are very well argued and sourced. Sorry if I appear to be negative - I'm sure you have the very best of intentions. Final point - when you comment on talk pages, please add any new threads to the bottom not the top of the page, and "sign" your comments using four of these: ~ Thanks. Ghmyrtle (talk) 15:03, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

Sorry....I'm new at this. I added a new source but it's not a hill I'm going to die on. I'm fine with removal. Fdog9 (talk) 15:07, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

What Are You Doing?

When I was reading the Calypso page, I saw Mento and Reggae in the fusion genres section, so I put the template on the pages. Why did you remove it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.54.195.214 (talk • contribs) 15:01, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

While I have no interest in arguing over genres and sub-genres (or indeed templates or categories), it's clear that mento and reggae are not sub-genres of calypso - though they were influenced by it. Ghmyrtle (talk) 15:11, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

Your Thoughts

I'm risking offending you here and if I do I apologize and I will drop the subject. I realize you are the main editor of the rock music page and I appreciate being able to participate. I wanted your thoughts on the Christian Rock section. I live in the states (where it has somewhat of a following) and this is a tiny genre that has no impact on rock music as a whole. The only notable group that ever made a splash was Stryper and that was very brief. I personally think it should be removed. Somehow Stryper doesn't belong in the same league as The Beatles or Pink Floyd. What are your thoughts on the removal of that section? Is that impossible? If you are a fan of this genre.....once again I hope I'm not offending you. Just tossing the idea out there. (fdog9) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fdog9 (talk • contribs) 15:02, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

I am not the "main editor" of any page - such a thing does not exist. If you want to suggest removing a section of the article, I suggest you raise it on the article talk page, not here. Thanks. (And, next time, remember to WP:SIGN your comments.) Ghmyrtle (talk) 15:06, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

Yikes! That'll get a negative reaction in the states! There's a lot of nuts here. I guess I'll drop it. Fdog9 (talk) 15:09, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

The Signpost: 27 June 2021

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